A Defination of Muscle car

[65cuda]

Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:


A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO


Fullsize Muscle Car:


The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc


ok did I open a can of worms???

[swi66]

I always have trouble with anyone trying to "clearly" define a Muscle car. To start with, even the term Muscle Car was not even used until the late 70's or early 80's.

It has become almost pointless to define the term. There are always justifiable exceptions to the rule:
Chrysler 300 letter series cars.
The Corvair Turbo Corsa
Pontiac T37 (a GTO without the badge)
427 Impala
440 full sized Chryslers
Olds Rally 350? Only a 350, but with a wing and decals.
What about a 62 Bonneville with a 421 and Tri-power
How about a 58 Olds with the Tri-Power, and all the dual quad cars from the 50's, even a "M" series T-Bird, or a T-Bird with a Paxon Supercharger.
Then there is the "blown" Studebakers.

Then you can ask if a Cobra is a muscle car. Or is it really a sports car? And if it is a Muscle Car, which most people consider it one, why isn't a early 50's Allard with a Hemi, or a Caddy motor considered a Muscle Car. Not to mention a Sunbeam Tiger, a Jensen Interceptor(440 Mopar), etc......

Is a Yenko a Muscle Car? Specialty made, very limited production, dealer made, not really factory though with some of the good factory options. Same Goes for Baldwin Motion, or Mr. Norm's Mopars etc.........

I prefer to consider anything a muscle car which has "above average" horsepower and performance built into it, and also consider a Muscle car to be avasilable to the general public, for street use. This to me would exclude the "Factory" race packages purpose built for drag racing.............

Yeah.............a can of worms!

[65cuda]

Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.

[swi66]

AS I said, this is a topic always up for arguement, but everyone has their own pet description. I've been in this arguement before.

Is my 66 Dodge Coronet 500 a muscle car? 383 4-speed.
Would it be a Muscle car with a Hemi?

So what about a base line Coronet Deluxe 4-door, with a Hemi and a 4-speed. They actually made a few of them, for that matter even a Wagon with a Hemi.

A lot of people don't consider Nailhead's 67 Riviera a Muscle car. Big motor and dual Quad. I do and so does he, but there are those that disagree.

Having fun yet?

[95gts]

wow what a topic. muscle car or not, who cares anymore, its almost as used as much as antique or classic car.
I read that the ccca dubbed the word classic as this definition.
A CCCA Classic is a "fine" or "distinctive" automobile, either American or foreign built, produced between 1925 and 1948. Generally, a Classic was high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities. Other factors, including engine displacement, custom coachwork and luxury accessories, such as power brakes, power clutch, and "one-shot" or automatic lubrication systems, help determine whether a car is considered to be a Classic.
or antique which the aaca said they made the term, antique car (AACA). Generally, the definition of an antique as applied to an automobile or truck is that it must be a model year that is 25 years old or older
or
car experts that write this,
By the way, 1979 is an old car, and some may even consider it an "antique", but it is certainly not a "Classic" car. The last Classic was made in 1942, with a few exceptions for carry-over models into the immediate post-war period - the last of which was made in 1948. The qualifications to be considered a Classic involve many more factors than age - for example: high Price, exceptional engineering or features, exceptional performance, exceptional stying etc. Examples of Classics are Rolls-Royce, some Packards and Cadillacs, the Lincoln Continentals, a few Imperials and some older obscure brands of the late 20's and 30's.

muscle cars I thought were 1 hp per 10 lbs, that is the way I learned it in the 80's, but now I think its just what ever sells for 150k, lol. I say just enjoy the cars and leave the "terms " at home.
It is easier collecting comic books lol, they at least have it set in stone, The Platinum Age, The Golden Age, The Silver Age, The Bronze Age, and The Modern Age. It easier lol.

[65cuda]

swi66 said:

AS I said, this is a topic always up for arguement, but everyone has their own pet description. I've been in this arguement before.

Is my 66 Dodge Coronet 500 a muscle car? 383 4-speed.
Would it be a Muscle car with a Hemi?

So what about a base line Coronet Deluxe 4-door, with a Hemi and a 4-speed. They actually made a few of them, for that matter even a Wagon with a Hemi.

A lot of people don't consider Nailhead's 67 Riviera a Muscle car. Big motor and dual Quad. I do and so does he, but there are those that disagree.

Having fun yet?

Buick Riviera No, Personal Luxury Car Too expensive and big,


Dodge Coronet Yes Fullsize Muscle Car Only R/T versions are considered muscle cars


its only ones opinion

[95gts]

isn't the riv too big, 4400 lbs, full size? That is a ton of car, well two tons. But still a nice looking car and closer to a muscle car then what I have lol.

[65cuda]

95gts said:

isn't the riv too big, 4400 lbs, full size? That is a ton of car, well two tons. But still a nice looking car and closer to a muscle car then what I have lol.

Ford Mustang the Pony Car guess what Joe, GTs, Mach 1's and Boss Mustangs are considered muscle cars

[65cuda]

first true muscle car, Pontiac GTO



hey did I jump start the forum yet???

[camarojoe]

95gts said:

isn't the riv too big, 4400 lbs, full size? That is a ton of car, well two tons. But still a nice looking car and closer to a muscle car then what I have lol.

Your just trying to get Nailhead to come out of hiding, aren't you?

[redrider]

Yeah, haven't heard from Nailhead in a long time. Hey Nailhead....where you been hidin'?

[65cuda]

hey Joe, you can`t leave without you car being classified


Chevrolet Camaro, Pony car, Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars

[65cuda]

redrider said:

Yeah, haven't heard from Nailhead in a long time. Hey Nailhead....where you been hidin'?

hey you never know at this rate terzmo may come out!!

[65cuda]

Plymouth Barracuda Pony car, Only 'Cuda models are considered muscle cars

EXP: 'Cudas with 340s are generally not considered muscle cars

[95gts]

Your just trying to get Nailhead to come out of hiding, aren't you?

I have talked to nailhead, he is doing fine, nailhead will catch on, I just emailed him lol.
The muscle car is just a name, enjoy the cars for what they are. But the gt and mach are not muscle cars, I say a boss was thats a cool car lol.
I was trying to get a bigger responce from the classic car crowd, your cars are not classics they are just old hahahahahaha. That should do it!!!!

[95gts]

Choo Choo here comes nailhead lol.

[95gts]

hey you never know at this rate terzmo may come out!!

;D ;D ;D ;D maybe

[swi66]

Maybe definition of a "classic" car should be a separate topic.

So only 1948 and older is a classic? Tell that to the 2 seater T-Bird guys, or the Tri-5 Chevy guys, How about a 59 Caddy?

Then again there are plenty of pre-48 cars that are not really classic at all, so common or utilitarian that they do not have a large following.

This is why I hate the categorizing or labeling by "so called" experts! Sure a Duesenberg, or a Maybach Zeppelin, or Pierce Arrow, certainly qualify as a Classic. But there are always exceptions. Doesn't the AACA have one definition, but another group have another?

I remember 10 years ago there were 4-5 Muscle Car magazines out on the market. They got boring for awhile, but they went deeper by doing articles on Turbo Corvairs, Supercharged Avanti's, Chrysler 300 letter Series Cars. Let's face it, how many articles on GTOs can there be written?
How many Muscle car books are out there now. Only one I know of is Hemmings Muscle Cars. I don't subscribe, but I have seen a few issues and they have pushed the envelope to include some cars not traditionally considered as Muscle Cars.

Years Ago, there were all of these Muscle Car Shootouts that Hot Rod, Car Craft, PHR etc...ran. next thing happened they finally started comparing 1/4 mile results from back then and now. Next thing was how many mods were allowed, and who was going to force a teardown to see if there was a stock cam.
Remember, it is common knowledge that some of the GTO's given to magazines for road testing were "ringer" cars that were "tweaked" for a little something extra. Some even went so far as to have a 421 instead of a 389. MOPAR and the others did the same.

This arguement was a good topic on a Muscle Car forum awhile back.
Nasilhead was involved in that arguement. The owneer of the forum though had his own definition that did not include the Riv. I still say it is a Muscle Car as I am sure even though it is heavy it would most likely run rings around some other commonly accepted Muscle Cars.

[65cuda]

ok so if I took a a 2002 Neon and droped a 340 in it, would that be a muscle car??? guess what, some people think so that was the issue I had with a person at my car show last year, just because he put a bigger engine in his car, he thought it was a muscle car, and the jap stuff with the fart cans, one walked away with out being registered, due to the class I thought he should be in, if you ask a younger person whats a muscle car, and ask an older person whats a muscle car you will get totaly different answers.


And the beat goes on

[swi66]

Now a 2002 Neon with a 340 is certainly not a muscle car, it is a Street Machine.

Remember, the guy doing the classification makes the rules. You the Guy!

I try and get it down on paper and on the flyer what I consider a Muscle Car, and every year there are arguements or exceptions! When I classify, If it is an R/T, an SS, 442, GTO and "Traditionally Recognized" Muscle cars, It goes in my Muscle Car Class, if the owner balks, he can choose my way or go home. And It has happened! I have had a guy with a SS 396 who insisted on going in stock class or he would leave. He told me right out that he didn't want to compete against the 440 Superbird that showed up after he was in the class. Now where else should I have put the Superbird? He left, no refund, never came back again.
Another guy will argue his Muscle Car is stock and should go in the Stock class, the real reason is they don't want to compete against fair competition but would rather compete against the plain jane 4-door cars.

I have similar arguements about "stock" classes and what and how many modifications are allowed. And I have screwed up too, you know that for sure.........I had no idea there was a small block in that Henry J until after he was parked.

You could compile an actual book, list every make model and motor combination and list if you will consider it a muscle car or not. Then all you have to do is get everyone to agree to read it to see where they will be classified.
Is a Torino with a 351 a Muscle Car? How about a Torino GT? (sorry GT is mainly a trim package) How about a 351 Cobra Torino? 429?...............having fun yet?

Years ago I rode in a 70 Sport Fury GT, 440 6bbl, B5 Blue, strobe stripes, exhaust tips, factory rally wheels, advertised, and marketed as one of the "Rapid Transit System". Car belonged to my neighbor, scarry fast, had trouble keeping rear tires on it. You cannot tell me that 4400 lb boat wasn't a muscle car.

Now getting back to your Neon, if the factory dropped that small block in there it would certainly be a new generation of Muscle car. Is the new Charger with the Hemi a Muscle Car? Is the Magnum with a Hemi? Remember, they still have smaller "base" motors.