A Defination of Muscle car

[swi66]

I agree participant judging has its drawbacks, the "buddy system". People who only vote for a certain make, people who only vote for the first 3 cars in the line. I have had people vote for cars in the wrong class!
Some people prefer participant judging. They feel they are then a part of it. Some want to be judged be knowledgeable people. I consider myself to be a bit more knowledgeable on many different cars than most, but certainly no expert. I just do the best I can.

No matter what you do, someone will not be happy. you cannot please everyone.

I have run both types of shows, judged and participant judged, both have good and bad points.

[65cuda]

I had allot of good remarks about participant judging at our show, I don`t think I had any negative commits about our show-- that was brought to my attention anyway, I had one lady after the judging was over thought she should do an audit, but she went away happy. Benny, participant or judged shows you are going to have the buddy factor involved, I think at participant shows the buddy factor would less likely to happen, what about the spectators voting? I had a people choice award, people seemed happy to vote on a car, only thing is do you have an age limit? yes I think we had a bunch of kids voting.
I have added a bunch more classes to our next show, should make the corvette owners happy, maybe draw more for next year, anyway like Gary knows you can`t make everyone happy, only one guy walked on water and they executed him long ago.

[swi66]

Over the years though there have been plenty that wanted to excecute me...........<GGG>

Rule of thumb, never let anyone see your paperwork, If you do then everyone will want to. I have actually had people try and look at papers I had under my hand while I was looking at another sheet, or walk behind me to look over my shoulder.

Hide when you are counting votes.............one thing I hate is when you are busy counting doing the tabulation. Then 10 people in a row will interupt you to ask you when awards are.
I generally tell them it adds 15 minutes every time someone interupts me with a stupid question. We are now running an hour behind..................If you want to speed things along, keep people from bothering me. Generally they walk away mad, or have to explain why they need to know..............

When I do cross-class I try and have dissimilar classes vote on other classes. Like Corvettes voting on trucks, street rods on Muscle cars, etc......and even with cross class, it is best to have each participant vote on more than one class.

[benny]

I have heard over and over at shows people complaing about participant judging because A..they don't care to do it..B) they don't like the class they have to vote in..C)..cars are not parked by class and are hard to find..D)..sheets are turned in or done before all the cars are there. I believe the "buddy" system is more prevelant in a participant show. Participant shows do not have an overall "knowledge" of cars to choose a winner properly vs a judged show ,big block cars with alot of chrome will usually be voted for over a better correct car. ..Participant judged shows;the participants,are more concerned with their car than judging a car fairly or properly. (most) Qualified Judges would have more time and expertise,also would be done faster. If judges are being bothered during ballot count and if this happens alot, then an experienced show promoter would not be available during the ballot counting. Seems like it would be a no brainer to an experienced promoter to correct this issue.

[65cuda]

some of the buddy buddy is in all judging i`m sure, but who is to say the judged shows have the judges who have the correct knowledge to judge a stock car, or a muscle car, and who can afford to hire such judges with that knowlgde, who knows the correct mopar fuel filter part number that is on my 65 cuda, I have a mopar oil and fuel filter do the numbers match to 1965??? I know if they do of not, and I`m sure only a vary few others know, I think this hobby has alot of ways it can be viewed, I was at a show this past summer that the class was: American production 1950- 1980 (Jag Show), it boils down to what ever the promoter wants to do, we all have the choice on what shows to attend.

[95gts]

I have to say either a judged show or participant judge show is fine. I look at it as if you want a fair award that means something, go to a national show. Usually you can, yes you can receive your score sheet after the show. I think thats a good idea, lets people know what they looked at and what you need to improve on. Keeping sheets and not showing is pretty lame, what the hell are the event people going to do with them, hang them on their walls? Keeping sheets is like the judges are hiding being questioned about what they looked at. I understand that after a show 75% of the people would come to talk, well argue. This is why their is a wait time of two weeks, you give your informartion and it is mailed to you. This year a local show personal kept saying that you can see your score after the show. I took it as a opportunity to see how well that would work. After the show the person was busy, so I emailed them. They responded that they would send the score sheet, well kept having problems sending it, I sent stuff to myself so my mailbox worked, but never received anything. Now I just see when they have problems and say you can see you sheet after the awards I just laugh.
I was at three shows this past year, millerhose which was PJ. A friend and I looked over I beleive was 1920-1939 mod cars, there were 7 cars. As you all are very knowledgeable, all these cars needed a award just great looking, well done cars. It was hard just to pick three. We actually sat and talked to the owners. We learned what they did, how long they had the car, and if they did all/some or none of the work. It came down to how much they did to their cars themselfs. But all were deserving of a award. The 4h was a judged show, was another great time and thought the judges took time looking at each car, and I was surprised to beat out a 68 stang, told me they really looked at the cars and didn't have a closed mind. WNYCARCLUBS show, another where I went around and tried to pick cars, problem there is there is just too many nice cars, you can pick ten old cars, at least the are just wonderfull cars, I beleive they had 4 choices, and 1st,2nd,3rd in each catagory. with so many cars, it just was hard to pick out the best I thought. But did see people just write numbers is and such, also trying to get around the buddy vote. Nothing is perfect, but all these people tried to put on a good show, and I would return to them, just me. But judging at these car show will always be debated by the people that don't win. I try my best at PJ shows, all I can do. But I know how I did it isn't perfect either, so I guess thats all we can do is try, and of coars enjoy a nice day, wish we had one now, friends, and the great cars on display. Awards are nice, but day with family, fun and cars is better.

[95gts]

one other question for the pros here. I understand the keep it stock look, originality of parts for the old cars. But is the new filters, oil and fuel filters of today better quality? I look at the cars and wonder if a better filter is just a better choice for a classic car, I mean they don't make them anymore and keeping it in better condition is the main goal. Or are the original filters have todays performance? Or are the old filters better/same?

[65cuda]

usally stuff like stock filters and heater hoses, batteries, headlights are tie breakers and for National shows, most of the shows around here don`t judge the items that are routinely replaced.

[cookin85ss]

Personally, I like all types of vehicles. Antiques, classics, muscle cars, 2-doors, 4 doors, trucks, vans, etc... Would I like to own a " Muscle Car "? Sure if I could afford one. I would much rather have a stock vehicle which has been souped up. AKA " SLEEPER ". Just the idea of being side by side with a " Muscle Car " at a stop light and when it turns green absolutely SMOKE that " BADGED " vehicle. Now that is PRICELESS!!! I would love to see the Cranbrook souped up. That would be an awesome SLEEPER. If I only had the money Ray...

[95gts]

My biggest thing about muscle cars is this, the ones I like I can't afford. I can't tell if its fake or has been cloned with fake numbers, I don't think I want everyone touching it lol. I am with cookin, the cranbrook would be a cool car to cruise, again I am buying Thomas the train and not classic cars at the present time lol. But if i did I think I rather but a car from the 40's or 50's, I always liked them and they are unique.

[65cuda]

hey guys!!!!!! maybe we can work out a deal I still have the 53 Ply, it would be an cool hot rod even with a 318 in it.

[benny]

Your not going to tell a fake muscle car if it has the proper vin tag on it except for looking for vin/tag numbers on rearends/rad supports...etc. Most people don't go as far as importing a tag from a parts car..if the vin number/cowl tag will tell the real story...with mopars,it is very easy to tell by vin after 63.

I do few shows because of the judging( PJ) It's a long day and I prefer a cruise because I can come and go as I please.

If you look at beautiful cars long and hard...inspect more areas than paint/motor/interior..you can decide fairly easy which is the better. I don't agree with the part of he who has done the most work by themselves, gets the tie breaker...opens up a whole new can of worms. Cars should be judged as they look, period. I am one of those people who has no favorite classic car. I would need a barn capable of holding at least 25 cars(and of course a big bank account) because all the car manufacturer's made some really fine automobiles. I don't vigorously support any one manufacturer; all had some GREAT cars, also some real stinkers.

[swi66]

Again good points on particip[ant judged shows. I have seen participants try and turn in their judging sheets at 11:00 AM when they were told they weren't supposed to turn in their sheets till 1:00 Pm, they threw them out...........
I do know of at least one show that checks and tabulates all the car numbers on the judging sheets, the number of the judge! If you didn't bother to vote, you will not win as you are then disqualified. I have heard some other shows do this as well.
As for hiding while doing tabulations, At Hartland we can as we can hide in the hall, though we did have one participant come looking and bother me. Some shows all we have is the tent in the open area and nowhere to hide.
I have been at this long enough so that just about anywhere I go I know plenty of people in all classes. I also vote for the car that deserves to win, if owned by a friend or not.
Also do my share of Judged shows where I am one of the judges. Even Niagara we do "Best of" awards, and I always have different people go out separately and they come back with a few candidates. If I know one of the candidates, I get someone else to choose without letting on who I know..............gets hard to run a fair show, all you can do is try.

[benny]

I don't think someone who doesn't vote for any cars should be disqualified. You pay your money to get in/support a show and should have an option of whether you care to vote. This sounds crazy to me...no vote; your out.Don't like the class I'm forcing you in; your out.This sounds a bit rigid and takes away the "fun" everyone was saying a show should be for.

[95gts]

Thanks Benny about the muscle car tags, I thought the rusted out ones were bought to make a fake look real (tags). There is a certain camaro in the area, orange yenko, it depends on who you talk to if it is real/fake. I heard about over the years the Matching # have changed, havn't changed. If its so easy why isn't everone in agreement? I heard of people that went thru this car and found out it is/isn't real yenko.
Sorry about the PJ judging, when looking at the old cars I was impressed on how nice they were. The people who owned them were easy to talk, actually enjoy PJ. I know its about the car but I give more credit to a person who did the work, always will. One guy just bought a car, sent it out and have it built, then sent it to get painted, didn't do a thing but paid cash, I give more credit to the guy who has pictures of the build and hunted for parts, even if his car isn't as nice as the other, he did more and has a nicely done ride. Credit to the one who works on their car, just me.
If they told people they don't have to vote how many would? Seems like a good idea to have everyone vote.

[swi66]

You like pictures of a resto in progress, stop see me at a show when I have the 67 Coronet. Myself and a friend did most of it other than the upholstery. had to replace ALL body panels too...........
Benny, I was just pointing out that is how at least one group does it. I understand their reasoning behind it. Let's face it, any show promotor has to deal with the participants. Sometimes it can be a great experience. And other times you really wonder why you are bothering wasting the effort.
AS far as that Orange Yenko, I don't want to get into that one. To me it is a very well done and detailed car. If I really wanted to I could get the numbers and trace them down......Why? It's not like I'm buying it or anything, it's out of my league. I really like the color, the options, and the chambered exhaust. And those who know me know that I am not a Camaro guy. If it's real, fine. If it's a clone, that certainly would not be the only one around here.
I'm a person who has diverse taste in cars, never know what I may come up with next. Yeah I lean toward the Mopars, but have a soft spot for the Corvairs and T-Birds. I can go to just about any show and cruise and find something out of the ordinary and spend hours talking to the owner................I really enjoy that!

[benny]

Some people do make original muscle cars out of standard models. I know of a place in washington State where they grind out the numbers on chevy blocks(front passenger side pad, and will stamp numbers to match the vin. So then You need to look at the motor casting date to see if the block does indeed match the car. They also sell blocks from the past and for extra money, will stamp them, so how do you tell now that it is not matching numbers. I believe the rule of thumb is 4 to 6 weeks apart from block stamping to build date of car. There are also places that will make fendertags and certicards. There is big money in muscle cars and like any currency, the fake ones are a plenty.

[65cuda]

I was told to get the correct dated spark plug wires for my car, I would have select a set or wires with a manufacturing date of 1-5 months prior to the build date of the vehicle. Model year production began on August 1 of the previous year, and ended during July of the model year.

[benny]

Are you actually going to spend the dough to get correct spark wires ??

[95gts]

that is good info Benny, I just have read storys and such, I rather buy a clone yenko nova. Pay less, good shape, and you know what you have. Chances of me finding a yenko nova, having the cash for it, and approval of the wife is well, like it won't snow in January lol, so I just appriciate looking at the cars. I also heard of finding the frame ID, usually buy the rear tire, but is usually hard to read, does that apply to all makes, I think I am thinking of g,m.
I like the yenko but there is always such a conversation about it, I stay out of it and just listen, its not like I am a camaro expert just just like the car.
I like to see the build of the 67 Coronet, I knew a guy down the street from me had a gray/silver one, nice looking car. i like looking at the build cause the owner can tell such stories of what happened and what went right and funny storys about what went wrong. Its realy entertaining. Butter then a story how you sent a car to a guy in west Virgina and it came back like this.
Original spark wires, jees think they be rotted out by now, must be a big buck item, I just go to napa lol.