A Defination of Muscle car

[65cuda]

swi66 said:

Now a 2002 Neon with a 340 is certainly not a muscle car, it is a Street Machine.

Remember, the guy doing the classification makes the rules. You the Guy!

I try and get it down on paper and on the flyer what I consider a Muscle Car, and every year there are arguements or exceptions! When I classify, If it is an R/T, an SS, 442, GTO and "Traditionally Recognized" Muscle cars, It goes in my Muscle Car Class, if the owner balks, he can choose my way or go home. And It has happened! I have had a guy with a SS 396 who insisted on going in stock class or he would leave. He told me right out that he didn't want to compete against the 440 Superbird that showed up after he was in the class. Now where else should I have put the Superbird? He left, no refund, never came back again.
Another guy will argue his Muscle Car is stock and should go in the Stock class, the real reason is they don't want to compete against fair competition but would rather compete against the plain jane 4-door cars.

I have similar arguements about "stock" classes and what and how many modifications are allowed. And I have screwed up too, you know that for sure.........I had no idea there was a small block in that Henry J until after he was parked.

You could compile an actual book, list every make model and motor combination and list if you will consider it a muscle car or not. Then all you have to do is get everyone to agree to read it to see where they will be classified.
Is a Torino with a 351 a Muscle Car? How about a Torino GT? (sorry GT is mainly a trim package) How about a 351 Cobra Torino? 429?...............having fun yet?

Years ago I rode in a 70 Sport Fury GT, 440 6bbl, B5 Blue, strobe stripes, exhaust tips, factory rally wheels, advertised, and marketed as one of the "Rapid Transit System". Car belonged to my neighbor, scarry fast, had trouble keeping rear tires on it. You cannot tell me that 4400 lb boat wasn't a muscle car.

Now getting back to your Neon, if the factory dropped that small block in there it would certainly be a new generation of Muscle car. Is the new Charger with the Hemi a Muscle Car? Is the Magnum with a Hemi? Remember, they still have smaller "base" motors.

oh ya the Henry J with the 350 that was next to me in the stock class, lol- I think if he wants the stock class thats fine, then it should be judged as stock and points deducted for every non-stock item, I know its kind of hard with spectator judging, but most of the spectators knew that it wasn`t origional, I thought it was more funny then anything else.


buy the way,Ford Fairlane / Torino GT/Cobra
Only GT and Cobra models are considered muscle cars

[95gts]

To me a muscle car is a big engine in a mid sized car, less options the better. Power to weight, less options less weight and era. Power to weight period. There is a lot of questions about the first muscle car but nobody ever talks about the last. What was the last true muscle car? Poncho 74 ta sd?
The reference to classic cars, is about the "names" or titles" put on cars. I think it would be easier to have specific years for a named car, like 57-74 muscle cars. I know on insurance I was told I had a muscle car, and even the FI show this year had 74-present muscle car class, to me its just ruins the name muscle car. To think a 95 anything as a muscle car is lame. Or say mustangs are sports cars, its not a two seater. Or the name hot hod, another name that gets ruined. Go get Hot Rod magazine, I have one from a couple months ago and it has a 2002 Grand Prix in it??? Its about a era. I don't think I ever think of my car as a classic, or anything past 74, just me, those cars 57-74 are what draw people to shows/cruises. I just happy to talk with the people that lived thru the era, and if they hang out and check out my ride thats cool to. actually surprised when I am complimented about the car, from older hobbiest, answer their questions and get to know them that what its all about anyways.

neon muscle car lol, I not even going to that one.....

[65cuda]

I used a Neon as a example, if someone put a big engine in a Market st. Hill soap box derby car, they would call it a muscle car

[benny]

The definition of a "muscle car"...is there a true definition, easy to interpret?? A 68 roadrunner with a 383/4 speed is a muscle car but a satellite with a 383/ 4speed is not. The first muscle car is "supposed" to be the 64 GTO....why...intermediate car with high performance motor(389/335hp is HIGH performance??) plus fancy letters on the car. It was actually a lemans with a GTO package.In 1962...the body style for the biscayne and impala was the same...except for tail lights and engine options. ENGINE OPTIONS>>>>HMMM...SS package could put a 409/340hp motor/4 speed and some fancy letters like SS....why isn't this the first proclaimed muscle car Lemans...vs Biscaye....as a matter of fact...the Biscayne could be ordered with the 409...sleeper car.
So going back to the definition of a muscle car...big motor in intermediate car with a fancy name or letters. Mopar had a dodge GT model in 64 that had a 273 motor...too small of motor...so the first mopar muscle car was the 67 R/T or GTX. (for mopar) Tell that to the max wedge guys and hemis in 66. Maybe the max wedge cars should of been called somthing cool like..Max erection...or somthing else cool....and Ford...they were screwed also until 66 when they made the Fairlane GT/GTA...but it had no cool name..(mustangs only had 289 as big motor in 66).and if a full size buick is a muscle car...what about the 56 Caddy eldorado..(around 360 cubes and 2 four bbls)..cool name....oops...no letters......Base motor for a camaro SS in 67 was a 350..that's a muscle car so an rs with the same motor is not....Is anything under 400 cubes a pony car if it has stripes and letters??? Then the GTO is out of being a muscle car.. I could go on but I feel the "muscle car died in 72 and didn't know it until 75 when all the cars lost their chrome and were nuetered.

[95gts]

Welcome to the forums Benny, I had to look up specs for 1974 car, i thought they were higher but seems like you are correct. I read about the 74 sd as a powerful car but seems like it was down on hp, I also looked up olds engines and did notice a drop from 72-74. www.johnnasta.com/6898/resources/index.html
Also fun to see the 68 toronado, 400hp 500 tq, 4brl and a 455 R engine. fwd muscle car lol.

[65cuda]

what if I cloned a Satelite into a roadrunner?? would it be a muscle car?

[65cuda]

I hope I struck the jack pot, a guy that runs a junk yard is giving me a lead on a person who wants 3 1970 cudas removed from his yard

[swi66]

Welcome to the forum benny, hope we don't scare you away...........

Like I said, the "Muscle Car" arguement is ongoing.
Sorry Ray, A Torino GT is a trim package, I had one with a 302, definitely not a muscle car, had a Ranchero GT as well, this one with a 400 motor. both were 2 bbl cars! Thing was, some Torino GT's came with the road wheels and stripe package, and could be ordered with big muscle motors.

How about a Dodge Demon. Is it a Muscle car! There was a Demon "Sizzler" that came with the slant 6!

When did the muscle car era end? Generally if I am running a show and have "classes" for Muscle Cars I will have one ending at 76, Just to include any T/A's that might show. Then some people consider the Buick Grand Nationals to be Muscle cars. So did the era ever end?
That's why when creating classes for a car show you have to define the years for your Muscle car classes. Of course the real reason I run Muscle car classes when I run a show is to keep the guys with the 4-door cars and small motors coming. Let's face it, there are more of them going to shows than there are of the muscle car guys. But if you class them together the Muscle Cars will win every time. Even if the Muscle car is a bondo wagon!

I once had a 65 Chevelle SS Convertible for a field car! The "SS" package consisted of an Automatic on the floor, Bucket Seats, SS Badges and Trim, and a Chrome Valve Cover, oil fill cap, and dipstick for the straight 6 motor! So sometimes even an "SS" is not a Muscle car.
So take that same "SS" Malibu and have the factory put in a Big Block...........they did, beleive it was called a Z-16 option!
A Friend had an early Impala SS (62-63?) Came with 283, powerglide, tach on the dash, plus those "SS" Badges.
But I have seen a few of those early Impala's with the 409's that are definitely a Muscle Car, so why not a Biscayne with a 409?

This is fun!

[swi66]

Benny, you used as an example the 68 Roadrunner with the 383 4-speed being a muscle car, but the Satellite with the same drive train to "not" be a muscle car. I can agree with that. But what if that Satellite had a Hemi in it? Would that make it a Muscle Car?

Another car I remember driving "back in the day" was a huge Maroon 69 Impala SS 427 with a 4-speed. Used to come into the garage I worked at regularly for service. The customer would always bring the car in, and I would use it to take him home and pick him up. He would bring it in for an oil change and tire rotation and ask for me to "adjust the carburetor again". Seems the car would periodically run rough for him and I would fix it.

Sure you can see where this story is going.............older guy, he needed me to beat the snot out of it to blow the carbon out to keep it running good................always happy to comply. This car was a good time..................yeah, a Muscle Car!

[benny]

I had a torino GT with a 351 in 1970...cleveland motor...310hp..buckets/console...the GT in 70 could also be optioned with a 429...in 68 the 390 was an option...the 302 was a base model. So where is the muscle car classification at....GTO at 389 cubes is ok...Torino with 351 is not??? Camaro SS with 350 is ok also ??

In 1960 the base motor for a chevy was the 6 cyl. You could get an SS in a impala or chevelle in 64 with a 283 on up. 60 thru 63 Impalas also has 283 motors that ran from 170 hp to 210. Not real burners until the 327 or 409 was optioned.

I also don't understand why a "stock" hemi cuda cannot participate in YOUR "stock" class. Guy pays his money; he should go into any class he wants as long as He qualifies.

So if using the GTO as the "first Muscle car" because 389 ci qualifies as the minimum amount of cubes....the roadrunner is out....boss 302/351 is out....any mopar with 383or less...302 z-28....350 camaro SS...Firebird with 350...any ford/chevy/buick/olds/..etc..speaking of olds...the first year of the 442 had a 330 engine....so..give that one the hook also...64 olds 442 is NOT a muscle car....

I don't think there is a correct definition yet...and don't think the GTO was the first muscle car.

[swi66]

Like I said, this discussion is infuriating. As there is always an exception. Now, anyone that wanted to compete in the "Muscle Car" classes in shows I run that have what might be questionable cars as to if they are a true Muscle Car.........I would let them in.

As for the guy with the Hemi Cuda that is stone stock and wants to compete in the Stock Class instead of the muscle Car class. He can go into the class I say, or he can go home. And it has happened. In the flyer I will always include the statements: Traditionally recognized "Muscle Cars" will be classed in the Muscle Car Classes. I also include in the flyers that: Classification is the responsibility of the host club, all decisions final! Or something to that effect.
Want a good example? Put that Hemi Cuda into the "stock class" to please the owner, then all of a sudden you have 20 of the cars in the stock class complaining that I put a Muscle Car in their class and the flyer says I won't do that. And these guys may ask for their money back, or bad mouth you on the internet, tell all their friends etc......how they were cheated! Yes I have been there, and beleive me I have made my share of mistakes. I would rather have the one Muscle Car guy mad, then 20+ people.

I have had people gone around me and go to registration and change their class. I then go to registration and see to it that person is disqualified.

Believe me, if you can come up with a better way of classifying, you are welcome to it. Want to spend a day with me sometimes going through this! I am sure I can set that up, or maybe Ray needs a classification volunteer for Miller Hose.

What I do is base things on my best judgement, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are no hard and fast correct rules. And beleive me, at just about any show, someone is not going to be happy.....................you just have to please as many as you can.

[swi66]

One other thought.............
On shows I have worked. No-one, and I mean No-one wants the classification job. If I leave for 5 minutes to hit the can, there will be a screwup. A Corvette in a production class. or something

[65cuda]

at the next Father's day show I may have a 64-74 muscle car class, I don't have the time to go into great detail and police every car entered, the owners will decide on what class to enter, stock or muscle, and the car should be judged to that class.

[swi66]

Ray, great idea adding the class, but I would seriously recommending you take control as to what cars go into that class and what do not. Otherwise you will have problems. Just put a disclaimer on the flyer saying you will determine classification. I think all shows should have the promotor do the classification, otherwise you will have someone doing something underhanded somewhere.

And I would go 2 Muscle Classes 64-69, and 70 -74.
I have actually gone to 3 at some shows.............64-68, 69-70, 71-74 but you're not there yet.

[benny]

So is there a "stock" muscle car class or modified muscle car class. I guess then to yank another scab, I compare that classification/statement, "stock muscle car MUST go into muscle car class or don't enter" in the same group of people who complain about trailer queen cars in a show. My opinion on that is a trailer queen has been taken care of better than a driven car, so let it in. Why do cars place first/second/third, because the first place guy took better care/maintenance and detailing on his/her car than the second or third place. (in a perfect world,not considering fixes/pals) If I wanted My stock hemi cuda in the stock class and couldn't, I would not do the show and spread the word. It doesn't make sense except a quirk an individual has who runs the show. Fighter's can choose a class by weight,no problem with a 6 foot 4 inch guy fighting in a 180 pound class against a 5 foot 6 inch guy, as long as He meets weight. Different classification of race cars by engine displacement/car body style. If it's stock,it's stock and should have options. How many cars are in the stock class with alot of modifications. Is an engine considered one mod?? The carb to pan are all mods to the car so where is the line drawn ?? Bottom line to me is it doesn't make sense to "police" one classification and ignore other's. Possibly done this way because it's easier to do, but not good for the car show scene.

And one of My pet peeve's is multiple classes for corvette/mustangs/thunderbirds. One dog,one Bone.

[65cuda]

I don't have the time to police everyones entry, and I don't have the help to do it either, the owner should be responsable for his choice of class and be judged as the class he is in, if I entered my 53 thats bone stock in a street rod class i should be judged as a street rod. the guy that was next to me in the stock class had a Henry J with a 350 and some non stock intake and carb, he wasn't removed from the stock class he was judged with the other cars that were stock, if he would of won I maybe would of complained, also I think it was this kids first show anyway.



the feed back from my shows are

need more corvette classes

need more thunderbird classes

60-69 stock class needs to be split up

muscle car class opened up to all cars not only mopars

(had a sponor who wanted to sponsor only mopar)

[95gts]

People will always complain about classes, they want the best opportunity to win. Smaller shows can't have a lot of classes, you still have classes with too many or not enough cars. The classes like mustang, camaro, vette interest me. I like to know how a 82 camaro can compete with a 69 z28? or a 84 mustang go against a 70 boss302? I think it can hurt a show also. I rather see all cars together and the years split up better. just me and the boxing classes, or in boxing today classless, some boxers even get naked to make weight. I don't think we want that at shows lol. Now you know why i never made it as a comedian.

[swi66]

First, the "Muscle Car" classes are for STOCK Muscle cars, not modified cars. Generally speaking, minor mods are ok as Muscle cars were traditionally modified in their second day, but for the most part, tires/wheels, exhaust, minor motor trim. As long as the car is "stock" in the spirit of being "stock". Custom paint or radical mods would put it in a modified class.

Of course at the Niagara Fair show, we judge that, and if it is any modification there, you can compete in stock class, but we judge as close to "stock" as we can determine to be stock in a stock class. So wheels and even minor mods can hurt a competitor.

The entire purpose of having muscle car classes is to break down the most popular era of cars represented at these shows to make it fair to all participants. This era is 1960-1974. So how do you break it down? As an Example I will use the Niagara car show. 1960-1965 stock(about 12 cars), 1966-1969 stock(about 10 cars), 1970-1979 stock(8 cars) 1964-1968Muscle (8 cars), 69-70 Muscle(8 cars), 1971-1974(6 cars) works out to be pretty fair for the most part.
If for instance it was just 2 classes:
1960-1969 stock:38 cars
1970-1979 stock:18 cars.................or thereabouts

That would be very discouraging to the participants as all the winners would pretty much be the Muscle Cars as let's face it, it's a popularity contest. And a Red Hemi Cuda, even with a few chips and dings and poorly detailed will beat a perfect 4-door car.

This is why you want to weed out the Muscle cars, to give the non-muscle guys a chance to win too.

Let's face it, no-one puts on a car show for the fun of it. It's big work, and the return is somewhat minimal. The show to be successful has to have a lot of happy participants that come back every year. For that to happen you have to have rules and policies and follow them the best you can. If you have a class for the non-muscle cars, you have to keep the Muscle cars out, otherwise you will have a lot less cars next year.
A guy with a Muscle car, that wants to compete in Stock production instead of the Muscle car class is a trophy hunter that wants an easy win.

Just about every show I have been involved in has had a participant want to be in a different class for one reason or another. What really gets me is that VERY often I have had people want me to create a class for them as their car does not fit into what we have available. Like I have extra awards made for this!

So Benny, have you ever run a show....................?

[swi66]

Yeah Ray, I would open up the Muscle class to all Muscle, but you need to split it in half at least. I would also split the 60-69 class in half.

You didn't have any thunderbird class did you? One would be cool.

I seem to remember you having one corvette class.
you could do 53-67, and 68 and newe..........

[benny]

I have participated in shows.( I don't need to insert credentials) Been active with old cars since I was a child.(driving the beasts for 40 years this coming fall.) A person who has done 50 shows is no better than a person doing 5. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a car needs a motor to move on its own. I only do 1 or 2 shows a year(participant) I feel there is no recourse for a poor show except to not attend the next year. People want more classes for mustangs/corvettes/t-birds so as to maximize a chance a poor car can get a trophy.(if they are accomodated then bel airs,coronets,satellites etc should have more classes for them. What makes them so special??) Hemi cars, IF the judges of the show were competent , I don't believe a poorly done hemi car could beat a beautiful coronet with a 318. Participant judged shows are for lazy promoters who are only in the show for whatever money can be made. Some spend alot of time and effort to assemble the "perfect" participant judge sheet to eliminate the buddy system. My answer is to arrange for COMPETENT individuals without cars there to judge the show. Participant judged shows generate too much heartache overall. A person should be able to protest a car in their class but I guess a participant doesn't know as much as multiple show organizers. Heaven forbid that ...LOL